In which I interview Tina Taylor about her experiences as a mother of two (Pauleen, aย psychopath and Marc, a neurotypical). What she talks about is as interesting as it isย important to anyone reading who has a psychopath in the family.ย The interview was originally conducted last year.ย
James Renard: Thankย youย for agreeing to do this. If I ask a question you don’t like, please just say so rather than making up an answer. Alright, could you briefly state the names and ages of your children, then tell us a little bit about their infancy?ย
Tina Taylor: My children are Pauleen, now 25, and Marc, now 18. Pauleen was a very easy baby. She only cried twice her whole life, and never as an infant. I just put her on a schedule for feeding because she might otherwise starve to death without a peep. I thought I was so lucky because of how easy I had it. She didn’t have terrible twos nor terrible threes. She only had one tantrum (because she wanted something in a store) but I didn’t give in. Starting at age two, she said, and did, some bizarre things out of the blue that stuck in my head – saying things such as, “Mommy, everybody thinks that I’m prettier than you.” I guess it was a competition. Other than that, I thought everything was smooth sailing until she hit age 6 when the lying was noticeable. Marc was a handful as a baby. He cried a lot during the first few months. He was very emotional during his twos and threes, but he did not stress me because he was so loving and cooperative. Starting from age two, he spoke truthfully, and I trust him completely. I did notice during their childhood that Marc’s behavior was markedly different fromย Pauleen’s. Marc was a difficult baby, but grew to be just such a joyful and helpful person.ย Pauleenย was an easy baby but grew to complaining about everything and making offhand remarks.
JR: I can imagine even psychopaths are terrible liars at 6. What was the most outrageously unbelievable lie that sticks out in your mind? Also, would you say that even while they were very young, you found it easier to get on with Marc than Pauleen?
TT: I always had fun with Marc at every age. Pauleen switched from easygoing to impossible at age six. Her first grade teacher evaluated her and she was put on ADHD meds. It only partially helped. She pretended to take the meds and had us wondering why it wasn’t working. Did you know that psychopathy is a form of attention deficit, too? When Pauleen was 4 she said a man came in the apartment and put a knife to her belly. That was the whole story. It was very matter-of-fact, no hysterics, nothing. At the time, I did not know what to make of it.
JR: No, I didn’t know that about attention deficit, and though I’m not surprised there’s a connection, it might be more a case of psychopathic behaviour being mistaken for ADHD.
I’m sure it became noticeable to Pauleen that you were more easygoing with Marc. Do you think she may have ever felt less loved than her brother? Might she have been jealous of your closeness to Marc? So when she switched from “easygoing to impossible”, how did you react? Did you feel positive about your ability to overcome the problem or were you lost? How did the way you treated her change?ย
TT: When Marc was just newborn, Pauleen told her grandmother that I don’t love her anymore.ย Pauleen and I could never develop a closeness because what she did and said made me want to hide from her.ย Of course she noticed that I was more easy going with Marc as time went by. I was totally lost. I couldn’t understand why. I didn’t even realize how odd it was that she never cried, until she finally cried when she was a teenager and I was dumbstruck. She had never needed comforting her whole life. It looked fake because her face was not stressed, she just had tears. It gave me a weird feeling. The way I treated her was terrible. I could not handle her behavior and I did not know what to do at all. I went to counselling, but I still grew distanced from her every day. We used to sit and watch TV and say absolutely nothing to each other like strangers. This is why psychopathy badly needs to be identified in children. Parents could do a better job than I did at raising a psychopath. Psychopathic adults could advise what their needs were as children. I am very accepting of her psychopathy nowadays, but it is too late. Well, even though I accept that she has a condition that is not her fault, I don’t trust her at all. There is the matter of lying to me and stealing from me that makes me uncomfortable about having her in my home.
JR: What can I say except thank you for having the courage to share that. It does take courage to admit screwing up as a parent. And gives a lot of context to your work and makes it very easy to see the motivation for your work.ย
So you were parenting from a position of ignorance, through no fault of your own, but you made those mistakes. That you have raised a well-adjusted son is evidence that you are a good mother, but you were completely unprepared to deal with a psychopath. Looking back, what would you have done differently? More importantly, what mistakes did you make that you would bunch together in a list of “don’ts” for other parents of psychopaths?ย
TT: Looking back, had I known that Pauleen had psychopathy, I would not have taken her biting remarks so hard. I would have seen her differently. For the most part, I believe I did a good job of making her mostly prosocial. I always believed in the positive reward system for children instead of punishment, and I did my best to do that. Pauleen especially was more motivated by rewards because the threat of punishment meant nothing to her. I hear now there are studies in the prisons on that philosophy for psychopathic antisocial criminals. I would not say that my son is well-adjusted. He has been living with his psychopath father since he was eleven. His father does rotten things to him and my son is a doormat, just like how I became from being raised by my psychopath father. I am not going into detail about why he lives there, but at the time he started living there, we only saw the mask of Harlan’s good-guy act. A list of don’ts is only one thing – don’t let distancing set in. I would say primarily to parents of psychopaths: Understand that your child is stuck at age 5 emotionally. This means that when the psychopathic child acts selfishly or impulsively, try to remember that it’s their permanent neurological condition.
JR: No matter how much in the dark you were, there was another person in your daughter’s life who should have understood her better: her father, a psychopath. Were there any signs that he recognised what Pauleen was and had a better idea of what he was doing with her?
TT: Both Pauleen’s father and step-father are psychopaths. (They are completely different from each other.) Pauleen’s father refused to have anything to do with her until she was 16. That was after he had a stroke. Maybe it changed something. Harlan is Pauleen’s stepfather, and he oddly made her the scapegoat and butt of his jokes. At the time, I thought he was unkind because she was his stepchild. I subconsciously made excuses for him because I was raised in the same type of environment. I did not realize what a dysfunctional family I had until it was too late. Harlan told me, after our separation, that he could not recognize others like him. That was probably a lie.
JR: We’ve clashed on this 5 year-old thing before (though I think last time you said 2 year-old, so it looks like I’m winning, forcing you to concede years of development!). But the essence of what you’re saying about the permanence of the state is excellent advice. Furthermore they should, as parents, accept and love their child regardless. Everyone else gets a choice. If your friend, colleague, brother, girlfriend etc is a psychopath and you want out, you know where the door is. If your child is a psychopath, tough. You stick with them for as long as they need you.ย Anyway, since I’ve gone all Fox News and am moralising at the interviewee (I’m thumping the desk as I type), let’s move on…
TT: Your lack of empathy is quite apparent. What you did is very FOX, in that all of their employees are psychopaths, right? Telling me about how people should stick by their children no matter what is bizarre since you have no frame of reference. It would be considered abusive – it is called shaming. Psychopaths are famous for it.ย On top of that, you can’t possibly know anything about sticking with someone. You drop people all the time. I’m sure parents give their kids over to foster care all the time because they can’t deal with them.ย Your lecture on human behavior holds no water. I can’t be shamed anymore. If someone doesn’t like how I do things, that’s their problem, not mine.
JR: You keep saying “until it was too late” as though someone went on a murder spree because you didn’t act quick enough. You’re not in that shitty relationship anymore, you’ve woken up to reality and nobody’s dead (I assume), so it’s more of a victory for you than some terrible defeat.
TT: I said it’s too late for 2 reasons: If I had known about the psychopathy at the time that I was dealing with it, I would have tried different things. My daughter had a few neurofeedback sessions to treat her ADHD and that worked very well for improving her self-control. I would have had her continue the sessions longer, and made it a priority in spite of the hardships I was having at the time. My daughter and I might still have a relationship today. Secondly, if I had known about the psychopathy at the time, I would not have felt so bewildered and off-balance by my husband’s peculiar words and actions, and I would not have gotten divorced. I would have dealt with it differently and the kids would not have had to suffer the consequences. Those are things that can’t be undone.
JR: “I believe I did a good job of making her mostly prosocial.” Tell me about that. What makes her prosocial? And how do you reconcile this confidence in your success with the complete lack of trust in her to not steal your belongings?ย
Pauleen is mostly prosocial. That is a contradiction of sorts because really no psychopath is truly prosocial. You all make your own rules and only pretend to be a part of society. I guess Pauleen plays her part, she works, she goes to college, and she is not a jailbird. But, she has lots of secret antisocial parts, too.
JR: Don’t we all.
Thank you, Tina, for taking the time to talk to me. Iโm sure the readers will agree youโve given a fascinating insight into the mind of a psychopathโs mother.
nowve666 16:00 on April 23, 2018 Permalink |
Spunky kid. He certainly had his charm on too. I had a friend who was hitch-hiking in the South at the age of 14. He was busted for truancy. They put him on a chain gang. The bitch of the thing was that when they let him go after he completed his term, the cops came along and busted him all over again. He said they would just act like they had never seen him before. And there were old men who had fallen for this scam. Chuck cut through the woods to escape.
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James 13:15 on April 24, 2018 Permalink |
Lol, spunk mean semen in the UK. So “spunky kid”, uhhh…
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Critter 16:52 on April 27, 2018 Permalink |
Very good observation. That kid does not have many behavioral brakes, not to mention a fairly practical way to approach to things. He is pretty much cream of the crop, con man material, lol.
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James 21:52 on April 27, 2018 Permalink |
What’s a behavioural brake? The thing that cemented it for me was not the kid himself, but the relatives. Dad didn’t even appear, despite being part of the story. Mum deflects blame to “the system” which let her son do what he wants. And granny, when she says that he’s a good kid, is lying. “Ah no, there’s no problem with him. He’s just…” (eyes go up to the right as speech falters) “…too intelligent for himself at the moment.”
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Critter 21:20 on April 28, 2018 Permalink |
If he’s half as intelligent as they give him credit for then surely, he wont have any problem anticipating his parents reaction if he run off with their credit card and passport. He tested their reaction twice before when they picked him up at the airport before, lol. He knows they will be pretty angry, probably stressed out and generally upset for a good while afterwards. None of that seem to bother him and any potential threat of punishment is not a problem either. Judging from the interview it doesn’t seem like he feel guilty or shameful for what he did. In short, he doesn’t seem have much respect for other people.
He’s good at finding the answers the interviewer will like, even though the guy doesn’t even try to hide his scepticism. The tv host compared him to Frank Abagnale a famous con man, that’s a bit manipulative of him. That’s a bit like suggesting the kid only managed to pull it off because he has the same abilities, not necessearily true, there could be more to that story.
The relatives come off as a bit shallow, hard to disagree on that. Granny is exaggerating the positive stuff, “he’s kind, he’s generous, he’s got a heart of gold and..Eh..Uhm.. Nah, there is no problem with him. He’s just.. He’s just… Too intelligent for his own self at the moment” she is excusing him and it doesn’t even make sense. She avoids saying anything that can be interpreted as negative. She knows he’s a selfish brat alright.
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James 09:56 on May 1, 2018 Permalink |
I agree with all of that, except I think the reporter and host were both taken in by his charm. Sure, they still saw what he had done, but sometimes that doesn’t matter compared to how someone makes you feel. Of course, there’s always more to the story, that we will never know (it would have been easier for me to make a judgment if I had got a look at the boy’s face, but that’s neither here nor there…)
Tell me, what do you think of the boy saying that when he watched his parents walking towards him everything slowed down? That struck me as fake as fuck, taken right from some soppy movie (possibly one of the Home Alones!), but then I don’t know whether ‘slow motion’ is actually a thing people experience.
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Critter 12:31 on May 2, 2018 Permalink |
The reporter does seem pretty captivated, he wasn’t hiding that. His face and voice give me the impression that there is an element of conflict between what the knows and what he wants to believe, lol. He looks like he recognise the behavior.
To me time dilation or slow motion type of experiences is more like something I reccon people would experience in critically dangerous situations (or possibly when certain drugs are involved). For him to experience everything slowing down when his parents show up simply sounds like an incredibly weird reaction. Even wierder when considering all the other stuff he managed to pull off without much restraint. I find that claim difficult to take seriously. It’s like something a drunken sailor would say to flesh out a story, or any teenager to impress his/her friends. He’s mother and granny were exaggerating stuff too, so he probably picked got that habit from home.
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James 14:30 on June 13, 2018 Permalink |
Have you experienced time dilation? I have stepped in front of moving vehicles more times than I should’ve – nothing remotely interesting happened, apart from the people around me getting scared. A couple of times, I said “my life flashed before my eyes”, because I’ve heard others use that one before.
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Critter 10:03 on June 22, 2018 Permalink |
Can’t say I have experienced anything close to “slow motion”, but time definitively feel like it moves slower if fear is involved. Which can be pretty usefull, for slow people like me, lol.
It’s not that I’m the type of person that takes most/everything people say literally, but phrases like โmy life flashed before my eyesโ kind of sound a bit overly dramatic. Then again some people just have a lot of dramatic stories, which can have entertainment value without having to be 100% believable.
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Critter 11:09 on August 27, 2018 Permalink |
Have you seen this talk by Frank Abagnale?
He did most of his crazy stuff when he was in his late teens to early twenties. That guy has a “grifty” intuition like few others. He talks swiftly and fairly highly articulated, what parts of his story do you find believeable and which parts do you think he added because they make people get a better/useful impression of him?
Just to be clear, I haven’t concluded anything about Frank Abagnales personality.
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James 09:03 on August 28, 2018 Permalink |
Haven’t got time to spend an hour watching that right now, but thanks for sharing. I enjoyed the film adaptation of his life with Leo DiCaprio.
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